I’m gratified that a number of opposing views have been made in the comments, I thank you all for contributing. I firmly believe that open debate assuming best intentions is how we grow to understand one another.
I’ve made a number of mistakes along the way, which I’ll now try and remedy.
I do not have a problem with CAII’s program in and of itself, or indeed CAII. On the contrary, CAII’s program is one of the more refreshing things I’ve come across in recent months. Although the program certainly isn’t my cup of tea; I have grave reservations about the absence of a safeword; it’s inventive, it’s fresh and I wish it every success.
The short conversation I had with CAII warmed me to her. If circumstances permit I’d like to get to know her better. People who bring new things to SL, particularly the BDSM side, enrich us all.
With that in mind, it was a mistake on my part to bring CAII’s program in to the discussion, as CAII’s program isn’t the issue that’s gotten under my skin so my apologies for that. It was a bigger mistake to not advise CAII of my post, for that I have no excuse.
In the same veign, I thank Ollalla Sugarbeat for taking the time to discuss this with me, again another person who I believe people who know her are richer for.
No, what really disturbs me is that OOC safewording can get you Grey Listed. The fundamental problem I have with it is the coercion that is implied: if you safeword here is the consequence. That is likely more a reflection on my difficulty in safewording, I’m not ashamed to admit that safewording has reduced me to tears in the past. For me, safewording is most certainly non-trivial. Despite an intellectual knowledge that safewording is the correct thing to do if the circumstances demand it, I still emotionally connect it with failure, I’ve blogged about this in the past. For me, safewording is the only deterrent there need be. That’s why I believe it’s inappropriate to record that on the Grey List as it’s OOC.
The popular perception amongst those who do not adminster groups who are participating in the Grey List program is that it’s a binary condition. If you’re Grey Listed, that’s any participation in any program that participates in the Grey List closed to you. The comments in the last two posts and a conversation I had with Ollalla Sugarbeat show that that is not the case. This has, to an extent, alleviated some of my concerns.
I understand and accept the position that the Grey List management is taking on this; I’m not sure I can go as far as to say as I agree with it because for me safewording is OOC and has no place in a database which was created to combat cheating and griefing with respect to RP.
Ultimately that is not the call of the management of the Grey List, that’s up to the people who both run and participate in these programs. As has been pointed out by more than one, the participants know what they’re signing up for, so caveat emptor applies.
Thank you all again for contributing and helping me understand.
Shuggi's Blog 
Thank you Shuggi. I am glad that we’re on the same page again, and I understand the concerns it raises for you, as it certainly raises them for a lot of other people, me included.
Be well,
Marine
Thank you for this post, Shuggi. I’m still wrangling with this one, and still feel, fundamentally, that there needs to be some penalty for safewording, or else the program is completely eviscerated. I’ve explained already why I feel a substantial monetary penalty is a problem, both from the standpoint of total program cost and from the standpoint of being an incentive not to safeword, something you’ve already said you oppose.
The concept of playing without a safeword is controversial, and I understand the controversy and the reasons for it. I’m willing to reconsider, as long as there is some meaningful consequence for safewording that’s fairly and universally applied. I’m not going to let some folks out with a slap on the wrist and hammer others; that’s not fair to anyone.
Anyone out there have suggestions? Anyone?
Oh nothing like jumping into the deep end for one’s first reply, but I do love a challenge, so…
First off, I’m a RL to SL kinkster who has played on both sides – top and bottom, in both RL and SL. As such I bring all the preconceived notions I’ve formed in RL with me into SL. In the interest of full disclosure (my, don’t I sound official) I’ll note that until these blog posts I wasn’t even aware of the Graylist and there’s a massive chance that I don’t fully understand it so I’ll try to speak in very general terms. Also I’m only aware of the Bane Suit from having seen them, and wasn’t aware of the CAII system at all before now. Neither falls into my personal “oh fun!” category so I don’t follow them very closely.
So exactly why am I sticking my nose in this then? Well, a pretty hair trigger topic for me is safewords. I’ve been to numerous RL events and can’t count the number of times I’ve heard people proudly state “I don’t use/permit safewords”. I hear it in SL a lot and my hair still stands on end when I do, but I have to admit that heretofore I’ve taken the “it’s just a game” attitude, (after the fact edit – having written this I think I’ll have to revise that opinion).
I have two thoughts on such statements. First is what happens in RL when a tightly bound sub starts experiencing chest pains? It’s a little difficult to convey that play has to stop and then explain “oh God, I think I’m having a heart attack, no really for the love of Christ call an ambulance”. A safeword gets you at least half way there with just “RED”.
Second – and I think Shuggi has covered this at some length, but redundancy makes the world go round and round and round and.. Sorry, back to serious. When a safeword is used that’s showing a huge amount of trust on the subs part. Firstly trust that the dominant actually will honor it, but also that they won’t be angry or start spreading rumors that so and so is a tease which to me is sort of the issue here.
But there are also trust elements on the dominant’s side as well. Not just the obvious “I trust you to use the safeword responsibly” aspect, but the knowledge that the sub trusts the dominant to act in the proper manner.
And of course limits should be made known and adhered to which is just common sense in any sort of BDSM, D/s, power exchange, whatever you prefer to call it sort of relationship. And of course a cardiac event is unlikely in SL and there’s little someone could do via SL to offer aid (I can’t imagine the horror of such a situation).
Let’s try a thought experiment in a strictly SL environment. We’ll assume that everyone has done everything 100% correctly, that no one is malicious or dumb or reticint about sharing personal information with a total stranger because none of those things ever happen, do they 🙂
And let’s use a little bit of RL Mina info for this since at the end of the day SL Mina reacts based on what her typist sees and feels.
As it turns out I’m deathly terrified of hypodermic needles. You’re thinking “well who likes getting a shot”, right? On four occasions I’ve had root canals without anesthesia (and no, I am NOT a masochist, and yes it did hurt, and yes, if I have to do it again I probably will forego anesthesia again). I can’t see a needle without shaking, and if a character on “The Simpsons” is getting a shot I have to change channels or leave the room. I am aware that there are prim hypodermic needles in SL but I do my level best not to see them. I can’t tell you whether they’re scripted or not, whether they’re simply props or full fledged toys, and that’s the way it’s going to remain. Just the suggestion of a needle is upsetting.
It’s a silly trivial fear to everyone except me. I even recognize how silly it is on a rational level, and can make jokes about it and discuss it on internet blogs with only a little tremor in my hands. But my hands do shake.
And of course in play situations I always make certain that it’s a well known fear.
But what if I somehow weren’t aware that I have this phobia? And what if I were to find myself in a situation where it’s not presented to me in the benevolent circumstance of a doctors office, but in a dungeon where a scene is playing out. Instead of “this will only hurt for a moment” what might I be being told as part of what to the dominant is a great scene?
How might I react being faced with something utterly terrifying? Something that I’ve never encountered before, and by someone who’s doing their level best to convince me that they’re serious?
Well in a world where safewords are absolute I will shriek “RED” at the top of my lungs and the dominant will stop at once and there will be hugs and apologies on both sides and shakey explanations and calm reassurances. We’ll leave that terrifying place and either continue playing in another location, or more likely wait a day or two for me to deal with the fear and then resume in a different setting.
But in a world where a safeword can – not even necessarily does, but simply can – carry a stigma, perhaps I would sit there literally quaking and about to vomit in terror. Perhaps I somehow make it through the scene, unlikely as that may seem. I won’t have liked it obviously. I’ll probably never explain what happened to the dominant – or even speak to them again in fact since no matter how irrational or unfair it is to blame them, theirs will always be the face associated with this horror. I’ll certainly never again place myself in a situation where I’m confronted with that nightmare. And if that means no more RLV or no more D/s or no more SL, so be it. If I could go back for a second third and fourth time to have someone literally file my teeth down without anesthesia I can give up SL without a second thought.
I’m the first to admit that safewords get misused. Heck there are lots of people I know who should use “WOLF” as a safeword. But the thing is those people won’t hesitate more than a moment to use other means if safewording isn’t a viable option. People who take safewords seriously, the ones who only cry “wolf” when there really is a wolf, those are the people who will suffer in a situation like this.
/me drops her two cents on the plate.
[…] and on. That doesn’t make me better than anyone, it just gives me a different perspective. I encourage you to read Wilhelmina’s comment in full, however the pull quote is here: When a safeword is used that’s showing a huge amount of trust on […]
Might be some dark shadows in past that made me like some unusual kinky play, in some cases even some risky play – but I did learn that there is one thing that is absolute – respect for your partner and respect for your partner’s will.
Ignoring safewords means ignoring you partner.
Forcing him to do things he does not want to do any more means ignoring his basic human rights.
And such play has nothing to do with BDSM any more – this is already a criminal act.
Abuse starts where consensuality ends.
Either it is consensual – or it is abuse.
there are two types of MAIN bdsm ssc,and rack,SSC=SAFE+SANE+CONSENTUAL,the second you use your safewords,play should halt.i have 3 safewords green means i can do the scene,but not to happy about it,yellow=i am VERY leary of doing the scene and it’s getting close to a limit i have,RED=I CAN NOT DO THE SCENE,your stepping over a limit and i want out. now i’ve done a stint in 3 greylist areas,1 as a bane,2 as a prisoner of the RR Prison, and one as a prisoner at CRC Prison,the first two i had no problems with yes as a bane i got depressed and lonely as i am sometimes a social person and sometimes i am not,and yes there is no safeword,you invest alot in getting the suit together and you also invest another 1,200l$ to enter the program,witch is non refundable and if you go to another veiwer it’s considered cheating out,same for RR Prison,same for CRC Prison,the ONLY PROBLEM i’ve ever had was abuse at the hands of a GUARD not following a hard limit that was at the HEAD of my second life PROFILE and also stated on the LM in my picks of not doing scatt,golden showers,or PERMANANT DAMAGE like ripping an arm off or leaving scars. At this point i i’med the head warden at CRC Prison and told her that i couldn’t finish out my sentence because i’d be around that paticular quard on a daily basis,as far as i know i was not greylisted.